"marshknute" (marshknute)
08/29/2015 at 22:37 • Filed to: None
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"marshknute" (marshknute)
08/29/2015 at 22:37 • Filed to: None | 2
| 25 |
You know what bugs me about performance numbers? They’re completely irrelevant. Nobody, and I mean nobody , EVER does 0-60. Not even at track days.
Nobody in the real world is prepared to dump their clutch on their own car , and nobody ever uses launch control because it takes too goddam long to engage.
Once more, 0-60 times give an advantage to cars with high-RPM powerbands since you’re sitting right in their sweet spot as you rip through the gears. So I ask that we stop measuring 0-60 times and focus on something far more relevant to everyday driving:
3K 0-40: A measure of how long it takes a car to accelerate from 0-40 mph while shifting at 3000 RPM, with the timer starting at the same moment you take your foot off the brake.
The vast majority of drivers do this on a daily basis when accelerating up to speed after the traffic light goes green. Having this performance metric would give a “real world” measure of a car’s acceleration. It would expose gutless cars like the Toyobaru twins, whose 200 hp output never lived up to expectations. Similarly, it would rightfully demonstrate how a 197 hp Fiesta ST is faster in the real world than a Toyobaru.
And in some cases, it would demonstrate that older cars with large displacement naturally-aspirated engines are actually still relevant, since they have instantaneous and linear low-RPM torque. For example, an E46 BMW 328i (2.8L I6: 193 hp / 206 lb-ft) would have a faster “3K 0-40” time than my old B7 Audi A4 (2.0L turbo-I4: 200 hp / 207 lb-ft). The turbo-4 in that generation Audi just didn’t have the low-end torque that its replacement has.
/Rant. For your time, please enjoy this photo of my WRX with its new gold shoes.
Flavien Vidal
> marshknute
08/29/2015 at 22:39 |
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I have a rotary :(... at 3000rpm I’m pretty much idling lol
TheHondaBro
> marshknute
08/29/2015 at 22:42 |
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Eh, at least it’s consistent.
Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch
> marshknute
08/29/2015 at 22:45 |
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I did 0-80 today at natures dragstrip, the turnpike toll station.
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marshknute
> Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch
08/29/2015 at 22:53 |
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I guess there are places where you can accelerate up to highway speeds, but they’re uncommon, and I don’t know of anyone who dumps the clutch off the line to get that perfect launch.
But I will concede that this “onramp” onto the Hutchinson River Parkway exists near my house. Yes, that’s a stop sign leading onto a super narrow 2-lane highway with a stone bridge about 100 feet later. Traffic is usually doing 65mph.
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Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch
> marshknute
08/29/2015 at 22:55 |
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This is about the only entertaining factor of I-70 in Kansas.
Wobbles the Mind
> Bman76 (no it doesn't need a WS6 hood) M. Arch
08/29/2015 at 23:00 |
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I have a specific course that involves three 0-65 on ramps, two 0-75 on ramps, and a road that is at 55mph with 9 traffic lights across five miles. That is my one and a quarter hours of Sat and Sun morning driving that keeps me legal and not needing to drive aggressively during the week.
TheOnelectronic
> marshknute
08/29/2015 at 23:00 |
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I have a few thoughts on this.
1. Yes, 0-60 times are bullshit, but not because they aren’t relevant. It’s ostensibly a measure of a car’s maximum acceleratory capacity, but lately it’s been too easy to “cheat” with short gearing, fast transmissions, and launch control. Look at the famous case of the 3rd gen WRX’s (after the oops of 2008) being faster to 60 than the STI. It was because the WRX had to make one gear change to get to 60, while the STI had to make two. In the end, the STI was still the faster car, and could accelerate harder, but because of that extra gear shift, it looked slower. While these things aren’t necessarily cheating, it does make it harder to compare times between cars if you want a sense of their acceleration.
2. I find it’s the car’s with lower-RPM powerbands that dominate 0-60’s. The S6 with its chunky twin-turbo V8 achieves the same 0-60 as the V10 powered Gallardo. The less-hp-lower-down 335i delivered strikingly close 0-60’s to the 100hp-more-at-a-higher-RPM M3.
3. The BRZ makes it in about, what, seven seconds? In my eyes, that’s slow. And yet the Mk. 5 GTI, with the same 200hp rating but from a torquier turbo motor in a (felt) heavier car, gets about the same. It’s not like the Toyobaru’s are being oversold. In fact, I’d argue 0-60 is the absolute worst way to quantify that car’s speed, because of all the time it takes to get from idle RPM up into the 5-7k powerband. People call the car slow because they try to drive it like you’re suggesting; low RPMs, early shifts. And yes, it is absolutely possible to keep the revs high in everyday driving. That’s part of what makes the car fun.
4. Your methodology seems very... boring. That number is relevant for how fast a car can accelerate when you don’t want it to accelerate fast. 0-40 shifting at 3k is barely spirited driving, and would bias the numbers towards cars with lots of low-end torque even more. Hell, the current EJ-powered STI wouldn’t even be on boost at that point, nor would the face-melting 911 Turbo (up to 997 at least). Performance metrics shouldn’t be about making cars we like look better, they should be about describing aspects of a car’s performance for people who haven’t been in one.
5. If you want a less bias-able way to measure acceleration, I’d look at a number like 40-80. That removes the vagaries of launching, and is absolutely something people do every day. It would also allow any car you’re testing to be wherever it’s comfortable in the RPM range.
Shoop
> marshknute
08/29/2015 at 23:03 |
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Not true.
Welcome to the stupidest on-ramp ever concieved.
Yes, there are a LOT of rear end accidents that happen here, since theres no run on room, or shoulder. You have between the stop sign and the highway to be at highway speeds. lest you get runover. Good luck.
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TheOnelectronic
> TheHondaBro
08/29/2015 at 23:08 |
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It’s not, though. With launch control, AWD, and a rear engine (*cough* 911 turbo) you can end up with absurdly low numbers for a relatively tame acceleration once you’re moving. We’re already seeing basically a floor around 2.7 as traction becomes more limiting than power.
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marshknute
> Shoop
08/29/2015 at 23:18 |
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I have a few “onramps” near me on the Merritt Parkway / Hutchinson River Parkway, but they’re pretty uncommon. So yes, some people do a genuine 0-60 run, but they’re still not doing a clutch dump to get a perfect launch.
At least measure 0-60 by starting the timer when your foot leaves the brake.
NotRichBMWOwner
> TheOnelectronic
08/29/2015 at 23:33 |
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I am not sure that I agree. Low RPM torque is what I want in a city driven DD. I couldn’t care less if took a little longer to get 40-80. What I don’t want is to have to wring the shit out of the engine between every stop light.
uofime-2
> marshknute
08/30/2015 at 00:32 |
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Are those sti launch edition wheels?
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marshknute
> uofime-2
08/30/2015 at 00:48 |
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No, they’re XXR 530 wheels. But your head is in the right place. I wanted something similar to the Launch Edition wheels. I actually think they’re more similar to the 8-spoke wheels on the 22B than the 5-spoke wheels on the Launch Edition STI.
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Lopoetve
> marshknute
08/30/2015 at 00:56 |
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So you floor it, and shift at 3000 RPM? Are you just weird, or actually certifiably insane?
I agree with your premise, in theory, that 0-60 is a bit odd since you don’t get to flog a car in traffic any more than you get to use a 500hp V8 in traffic (hence why I’m not fond of the Toyobaru twins), but flooring it to 3k is not sane or normal either. And not flooring it means you have an infinite set when it comes to potential throttle values and their actual interpretation (50% throttle on throttle-by-wire does not always imply 50% opening of the valve, etc).
RazoE
> marshknute
08/30/2015 at 00:56 |
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0 to 60 is supposed to be how fast you can accelerate and merge into highway traffic. It rarely happens that way, though. It’s more like 0 to 30 to 35 to 30 to 70 then once they enter the passing lane, 60.....
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uofime-2
> marshknute
08/30/2015 at 01:12 |
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They look great!
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samssun
> marshknute
08/30/2015 at 01:45 |
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Counterpoint: between diminishing returns for 0-60, and the emphasis on launch, we should move to 5-75 times. This would help capture the whole powerband.
Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen
> marshknute
08/30/2015 at 02:18 |
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UK car magazines like Autocar used to publish 30-70 times as well as 0-60, though they seem to have stopped. It’s a much more useful stat because it’s basically the overtaking range, and not dominated by clutch dumps, traction, and where the 1-2 shift happens.
There’s a list of some random cars’ 30-70s here - dunno how authoritative it is.
Herr Quattro - Has a 4-Motion
> marshknute
08/30/2015 at 04:49 |
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Eh. I think 0-60 times are important for onramps. Are you actually doing a 0-60 test? No. But when your car shopping, usually you can cross reference to get a general idea of how fast it’d take to get up to high way speeds.
Whenever I gun it to get on a highway, it amazes me that [Insert any supercar made in the past 20 years here] would be going over twice the speed limit by the same time I backed off.
WRXerFish - WRX-Wing pilot
> uofime-2
08/30/2015 at 07:42 |
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They do. I’ll be going for a similar look on my ‘15.
04sneaky - Boxers. Blowers. Bikes. And bitches.
> Shoop
08/30/2015 at 12:22 |
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Or you could just have them post a dyno sheet showing the full powerband curve.... More importantly the space under the curve starting from 2000 rpm, not just peak power.
That is what I’ve used to visually show everyone how sad the Toyobaru twins are and why the ST twins are more fun to drive.
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uofime-2
> WRXerFish - WRX-Wing pilot
08/30/2015 at 12:27 |
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I’m thinking method mr 501 a in bronze for my winter wheels on mine
89PartyMobile
> marshknute
08/30/2015 at 20:58 |
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Great looking car and wheels! 17s or 18s?
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marshknute
> 89PartyMobile
08/30/2015 at 22:49 |
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18’s
Rico
> NotRichBMWOwner
10/25/2015 at 13:09 |
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This pretty much. I like instant torque, test driving the P85D was divine.